Trying to Taxes with NLD and Being in the Working World with NLD
I’ll be interviewing Geoff Hoppe who has NLD. I’ll interview him about his challenges with doing taxes and being in the working world as an NVLDer. I’ll start with Geoff introducing himself.
Geoff: “My name is Geoff Hoppe and I’ve written a couple of times about my experiences with NLD, so it’s public knowledge. There are a few pieces that I’ve shared with you that you can link in this chapter and share with your readers about my experience, and how the work world politics and diversity perceive NLD. one of these was ‘How I Learned How Corporates Speak About Inclusion Is Just Power Politics.’ And tag line for that is ‘politically correct intolerance disdains actual diversity in the workplace(https://spectator.org/how-i-learned-that-corporate-speak-about-inclusion-is-really-just-power-politics/). And the second one is ‘Embrace Neurodiversity In The Workplace To Meet Your Business Needs’ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2020/06/10/embrace-neurodiversity-in-the-workplace-to-meet-your-business-needs/?sh=a41f0db27834#161736132783). The introduction for this is actually ‘Sensible Americans know the moral and economic importance of workplace diversity. In this eye-opening and informative piece, Geoff Hoppe writes about a type of diversity whose value for businesses has not been adequately recognized: neurodiversity, in particular, people with a condition known as nonverbal learning disability (NVLD). Read, be enlightened—and act!’”
Me: Thank you Geoff for that introduction about yourself and your articles. When were you diagnosed with NLD?
Geoff: “So I had the diagnosis of ADD or ADHD for years and my diagnosis started as ADHD but is now NLD. I found I had NLD at age 34 after I got myself tested. I had struggled with organization and executive functioning for years. It got so bad that I thought there had to be some explanation beyond my messy and randomness. So I shoveled out the money to get tested and voila I found out it was NLD. I had suspected before that I had Aspergers.”
Me: Yeah I can understand why you would have the previous diagnosis of ADD or ADHD because people can think that since someone who has NLD processes things more slowly that they aren’t paying attention when in reality they’re just taking longer to absorb the information that was given to them. I was diagnosed with NLD at the age of 19 by The Wright Institute in California. I did the testing because like I said in previous chapters I had a burning hunch inside me that I was different from everyone else in my family in some way. Apparently, I was right! Geoff, do you know what caused your NLD?
Geoff: “I’m pretty sure I was born with NLD. From what I have read I think NLD is caused by a weaker, smaller splenium among other biological and neurological factors. I try to keep up with academic research but it’s not easy to understand. Also, there’s incredibly little of it. Either way, I have been the way I am for as long as I can remember. Thus I guess my NLD is caused by whatever is physically neurologically different about my brain.”
Me: I’m pretty sure that I got it from my dad’s side of the family because he was adopted. Also, you can be born with NLD or it can be genetic. We don’t know much about his biological family since they didn’t keep really good records back when he was adopted. I didn’t know that a weaker, smaller splenium which is the thick posterior part of the corpus callosum of the brain could cause NLD. I wish there was more research out there about NLD. But I do know that The NVLD Project is a nonprofit that helps provide resources for NVLDers and their families by researching more about NLD. Hopefully, this will help there be more research about NLD in the future. This will help people who have NLD and neurotypicals understand it more, learn more about it, and be aware of it. How do you feel about having NLD, Geoff?
Geoff: “{Absolutely, it would be more helpful if there was more research out there.} Frustrated, angry, different, isolated, special, and occasionally thankful. My feelings about my disability are a mixed bag. I’m frustrated more often than not. I know there are times my NLD has made me exceptionally good at what I do, however, those times are pretty rare lately. I’m fighting to get back in a position where my NLD can be as much of a strain as it has been a frustration.”
Me: I definitely can understand your mixed bag of feelings about having NLD. Right after I was diagnosed I was relieved to have an answer to why I struggled with so many things in my life. But it does make things frustrating at times because I have to spend longer completing tasks. I’m sorry that it seems like NLD is more of a frustration than a blessing for you presently.
Geoff: “Thank you for that.”
Me: You’re welcome. What differences or challenges do you struggle with as a result of having NLD?
Geoff: “Executive functioning, organization, inference, time management, and short-term memory are the big ones. I’m a big fan of Scott Bellsika’s characterization of NLD as trouble seeing how information fits together. If some task requires a big picture, a holistic view I’ll probably struggle with it. I have a really tough time pivoting or changing plans. Once I decide how I’m going to do something I don’t really like pivoting away from that plan. For instance, I’ve been doing Instacart to earn money for a few months. It was very difficult for me at first. I wanted to get every item on my list one by one. When I get a list of things to do I like to stick to that order and not change it. But I would save more time if I’m willing to stop and say hey I could stop here and get item number three from the list before I get item number four because I’m passing by where I would get that item. But to get myself to that point where I broke out of the strategy of getting items one at a time and not diverging from the list took a lot of work. It’s possible though. But it does take a lot of work.”
Me: I also struggle with the big picture concept, holistic view as you called them. I tend to zero in on the smaller ladybug details rather than the picture. Sometimes I do it so much that I have tunnel vision and lose the big picture completely. I can relate to your example with Instacart when I tried to multitask. Sometimes I wind up doing it more slowly than if I had done one task at a time. My other struggles are doing basic mental math, understanding body language, facial expressions, hand signals, executive functioning, and critical thinking. And being able to understand what my tone of voice conveys to others. Does your family help you with the challenges that you have as a result of NLD?
Geoff: “Undoubtedly, constantly, right now I’m living with my parents because I can’t find full-time work. I make money how I can. But I don’t make enough to live on my own in this area. I live in Northern Virginia where the cost of living is just ridiculous.”
Me: I agree with you. My family constantly helps me too and have ever since I was diagnosed. They help me in any way they can with anything that I need from them which makes me extremely blessed to have their help. I know if I didn’t have it my life with NLD would be much harder than it is. I also live with my parents because of COVID-19. And it is easier for me to do because of NLD. Fortunately, I do have a full-time job because I’m working for my parents’ non-profit that my mom started and founded. I don’t think I would make enough to live on my own without a higher-paying job. Does your family help alleviate the challenges or do they make them worse?
Geoff: “They help alleviate the challenges, if I had to worry about making rent every month that would be a huge extra stressor.”
Me: Yes, I can understand why that would be. My family also alleviates the challenges by helping me with them. I would agree with you if I had to worry about paying for things on my own that would be a big stressor for me. They do try to help me learn how to manage my money by helping me be aware of what things cost. They also help me with this by having me reimburse them for things that they buy for me like prescriptions and toiletries. They also help me take care of my dog, Truffles. And they don’t have me pay for her care. But they may have me eventually do that to practice budgeting money. Are they gifts you have from NLD?
Geoff: “Yes, I’m good with language and I can hyperfocus on things I’m interested in. I also have a great long-term memory {that is} far better than most people I meet. I had a friend call me our walking encyclopedia once and not to brag but that kind of sums it up. I also notice things other people will overlook thanks to hyperfocus.”
Me: I also have gifts from NLD. I’ve mentioned them in previous chapters but if you haven’t read them, they are a good auditory and verbal memory, recalling people’s names, birthdays, and faces. I’m also good at remembering song lyrics, lines from movies, and memorizing numbers. I’m not trying to brag either but I would also be called a walking encyclopedia because I can remember family stories, odd facts about animals, and places we’ve visited well. I tend to notice things people would overlook too, because of being able to recognize the small details rather than the big picture most of the time. Is there something you wish the world knew about the NLD?
Geoff: “I wish the world knew what it was! I didn’t even know what it was until I was diagnosed. Awareness isn’t everything but more awareness of NLD seems to me to be a necessary first step in getting the help we need. When Chris Rock announced that he had NLD I was thrilled, {because now} we finally have a recognizable face for this disability. I’ve talked to other NVLDers {about} trying to think of other possible NVLDers from history. I suspect Edgar Allan Poe may have had NLD. but having a famous contemporary {person} is probably better for raising awareness.”
Me: I agree with you. I wish that more people knew what it was also, that’s why I’m doing this podcast. I want to raise awareness and understanding about NLD, make NVLDers know that they are not alone, and help inspire NVLDers to overcome their challenges like I do. I was thrilled too when Chris Rock announced that he had NLD because then we now have our first famous person that has it at least to our knowledge. I’m not happy that he has it because it does have some aspects that make life more challenging. I agree with you that also having a contemporary example is better for raising awareness because then people will know who you’re talking about. Not everyone may know who Edgar Allan Poe was.
Geoff: “hmm.”
Me: Do you ever wish you didn’t have NLD?
Geoff: “I wish I was better with organization, executive function and other things. I don’t think there’s a point in saying ‘I wish I didn’t have it,’ because that will never be a possibility. It’s sort of like saying ‘I wish I was taller or I wish my eyes were a different color naturally.’’
Me. Mmm, very true and wise. I would agree with you. Sometimes I wish something came more naturally to me but that’s why I work hard at making my challenges easier and seem less of an issue for me. And so they are easier for me to deal with. You’re right, we can't get rid of the NLD. But at least we can try to make our life easier by working at our differences or challenges instead of doing nothing about them. I mean if we didn’t have NLD we wouldn’t have the gifts that we have.
Geoff: “Sure.”
Me: Do you ever feel like NLD is a burden?
Geoff: “There are definitely times when I do. My former employer used my NLD again and backed me into a corner. My grad school advisors kicked me out because adapting to the symptoms and comorbidities of NLD was a nuisance to them. That’s two major opportunities where my NLD was a factor, though to be accurate the NLD was less the problem than my employers who were intolerant of neurodiversity.
Me: Hmm, I would agree with you that I do feel it is a burden when I feel like I have to work extra hard at something to make it easier for me to do. I’m sorry that your old employer did that to you, they should have helped you not backed you into a corner. NLD can actually make you good at some tasks at work. You can see things that others may overlook like the small details. Or you may remember the conversations you have on the phone with people better than your fellow employees. Employers should try to embrace NLD and neurodiversity. And ask us how they can help us improve at our job instead of making us feel incompetent. My parents help me by giving me constructive feedback on how I can improve on tasks that I do for them. I'm also sorry that you had to experience what you did in grad school. It wasn’t fair for your instructors to do that to you. What would you tell others who have NLD as motivation for when they get discouraged?
Geoff: “I would tell them that the world is designed by and for neurotypicals the world isn’t designed to break neurodiverse people. But often it feels that way. Don’t break. It’s useful to find heroes or examples of people who refuse to budge even when they’re up against it. Stonewall Jackson is a hero of mine for that reason, along with the fact that I think he was probably on the spectrum.”
Me: I agree that unfortunately the world is designed for people that have a brain that is wired the usual way that is neurotypicals. The world would be easier for people like you and me to navigate if it were designed for neurodiverse people who are the ones who have learning disabilities or learning challenges. There are some agencies and companies that help neurodiverse people or physically disabled ones. But that’s because they know what those things are. People don’t know as much about LD so it’s harder to help NVLDers. Once they know more they can help us more. I would agree to keep trying to be a hero and inspire others to do the same. We need more neurodiverse people to encourage each other to keep spreading the awareness, understanding and knowledge about NLD and other learning challenges that aren’t well known. Or the ones that are invisible.
Geoff: “Yeah absolutely!”
Me: What would you tell people who don’t know they have NLD but suspect they do?
Geoff: “Read up on it as much as possible, The NVLD Project is a good resource especially the YouTube interviews they do with NVLD experts. Linda Karanalis is another good resource as is her facebook group “NVLD Pioneers.” if you really think you might have NLD it’s worth it to get tested, that said the testing is incredibly expensive. It was about $4k for me.”
Me: Wow that is a lot.
Geoff: “yeah!”
Me: I agree it is a great idea to read up on it and get tested even if it is expensive. It is definitely worth it! You’re right The NVLD Project is a great resource with their YouTube interviews and stories on their website with people who have NLD sharing their experiences. Those are the stories that I use in my podcast. I haven’t heard of Linda before. But I will check her out. What are your challenges with taxes and how does that coincide with NLD?
Geoff: “As for taxes the whole process is a nightmare for me. I’m not good at math, or numbers so that’s one problem. I struggle with anxiety so taxes also provoke the fear that I’m doing something wrong. Or will get into legal trouble. Also the whole bureaucratic mutlit-step nature of the process is a nightmare for the associative thinker like me. My mind is not designed to put one foot in front of the other or navigate multi-step bureaucratic processes. It’s designed to make weird random connections other people don’t see. Their entire tax code feels like a government attempt to punish neurodiverse people like me frankly. Think about it. Once a year you pay the state for the privilege of doing math and there’s a possibility you go to jail if you screw up. Oh and the people spending the money may not be the people that you voted for. And that’s before we even get into saying Thomas Jefferson’s idea that it’s unethical to spend tax dollars on something we disagree with. Even though I live in the ultra liberal Fairfax county of Virginia that’s definitely the case for me.”
Me: I can understand how you feel about taxes because I’m not good with math either. That’s why I have my older brother, Jonathan help me with them. My brain isn’t designed to do multitasking either. When I try to do it I often realize that I would be better off getting one task done at a time like I shared earlier in this chapter. I was trying to think about what would be hard for one who has NLD when it comes to taxes or others things in life. I think that thing would be trying to grasp the big picture that is behind taxes and other things in life. Which is that it can help other people than just the ones who receive the benefits. It can help the whole economy if they are treated properly by having the correct tax brackets. So I would encourage you try to train your mind to see the bigger picture of things like taxes more than you would naturally and normally. Once you do this it will help you see it in other places that will be helpful for you. For instance if you notice when people aren't helping someone out that fell off their bike then you should decide to help them rather than being a bystander. If you do this you can start a chain reaction that could be spread around to others and spread more kindness out to others around the world. The other question i would add would be what is the proudest accomplishment that you have acchied?
Geoff: “my proudest accomplishment is probably the volunteering and services stuff I've done over the years. I don’t look at a lot of things I’ve done as amazing accomplishments. But giving money to charities that need it, or doing other volunteer stuff I look at as concrete things I can be proud of.”
Me: So for me I’m proud of being able to help children and young adults who have autism because of me having NLD i can relate to how they feel. I know what it’s like to have a brain that is wired differently, have things that are challenging in your life, and be discouraged when you don’t have things come naturally to you. I also know what it’s like to feel alone, and like no one knows what NLD is or what learning challenges you have. By helping these people I have been able to learn more things about myself like that I don't do well when my employer doesn't know that I have learning challenges. Because they can’t adequately help me improve on my challenges. That’s why my next job outside of working with my parents will be one that I can hopefully share that I have learning challenges with my employer. Thank you Goeff for letting me interview you.
Geoff: “thank you for having me.”
