Interview With Me and Ellen Part 1
Jen: All right, I am here with Ellen, and I will have her introduce herself so that the audience knows a little bit more about her. Yeah, absolutely.
Ellen: My name is Ellen Rispoli. I am a special education teacher in Indianapolis, Indiana, and I also have a nonverbal learning disorder. Jen: And is the school you teach at private or public?
Ellen: So I teach at a charter school. So the way that our school district in Indianapolis kind of works is that Indiana is a strong believer in school choice, to diversify our community. So families choose a school, whether it's a public school within their zone or a charter school that is. appealing to the student to enter into a raffle and see if there's a space for it. And, so my school is technically a public charter school, available for everyone. There is no tuition for it. But it is selective. So we do that by lottery, and there are a specific number of spots open every year based on our school's capacity.
Jen: Yeah, that makes sense to me. I went to a charter school growing up also so I can relate to that. I know you work with children who have learning disabilities. What are some of the disabilities you work with?
Ellen: Oh, well, um, 13 classes of disability are protected under the IDEA, which is the Individual Education, wait, Individual Disabilities and Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act.
Jen: It's okay.
Ellen: Yeah, it's a mouthful, and I'm not used to saying it out all the way, but there are 13 classes of disabilities that I am certified to work with, but because my charter school’s magnet is classical learning styles and college preparatory. The most common disabilities that I see in my classroom are other health impairments, which is the way that we classify ADHD, to be certain.
With an IEP. We have lots of specific learning disabilities in reading, writing, or math, some unspecified. We have a lot of students who have autism diagnoses, and then emotional disorders are now the way that it's going. categorized, but it used to be considered EBD for emotional and behavioral disturbances. So those are the ones that I see the most of. I also have students with traumatic brain injuries, deafness, or hearing loss. I don't have any blind students right now or students with physical handicaps, but I have historically worked with those types of students as well. Jen: That's a lot of different areas.
Ellen: Yeah. Yeah, 13 is a lot.
Jen: Is there anyone that you, like any student or, you know, a learning challenge that you can think of that helps them excel at a certain subject? Ellen: Oh. I mean, I think every single learning challenge comes with a hidden talent, right? The way that we talk about learning challenges is, Most of the time, inherently ableist because we are choosing to negatively code, using our language for the gifts that we already see. So when we think of ADHD, we talk about impulsivity, but instead, you could use a more positively valenced word like spontaneity or creativity, right? So every word that we typically think of as a hindrance in a school setting can also be paired. With just a gift. So, for example, a lot of individuals, like I said, have a lot of other health impairments and autism, right?
So these individuals tend to perseverate or hyperfocus on a particular thing that interests them. So there might be one class in particular that they excel at because they'll get lost in it. They're deeply engrossed in that learning process. And so we have a lot of students who thrive. A lot of students who are motivated, through the grading system, right? Our grading system is. a behaviorist policy to try to incentivize the type of learning we want to see. And so there are a lot of students who work well. There are also a lot of students for whom it doesn't work well. And we can talk a little bit more about that later, especially when we look at how COVID kind of broke that down. But I think that every single one of my students has strengths and gifts. That sometimes, you know, other teachers or parents don't see until we start to kind of shape the language that we use to describe the student.
Jen: Yeah, that makes sense. So when you're working with your students, do you work in a certain subject or are you kind of overall?
Ellen: Yeah, so the way that an individualized education plan works is you look at what the student's distinct challenges are and you fortify them. So, if I have a student who's struggling with reading, I use multiple reading interventions during their 80-minute block in my space to give them tools to be able to read their grade-level texts inside of their general education classroom.
So I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of writing. So the way that we've kind of distributed our caseload is by academic grade level. So I had 14 seniors graduate in May, and their challenges varied. A lot of them were math. So I was teaching pre-calculus, calculus, as well as statistics. So those were all the higher-level math courses that we taught. And so we just kind of met the students where they were in their academic trajectory and said, Okay, this is how I'm going to be an expert. Typically, students who have struggles in math also struggle in science. So whether that's physics or chemistry, we did a lot of that. If they have challenges in reading and writing, they might struggle more with biology, psychology, sociology, and those sciences. And then there's the entire other class of individualized education plans, which is on functional skills, not just academic skills. So those functional skills that I teach are things like using a planner, managing your time, keeping yourself organized, and turning in your assignment. So there's just a whole level of executive function that I'm also teaching in my classroom.
Jen: You know, I was thinking of a question that kind of came up when you were talking about those. Do you ever find yourself having challenges with some of those areas? Because those are some of the challenges with NLD, like math and executive functioning, they're trying to teach somebody else.
Ellen: Yeah, there are times when I have to turn to my students and say, I know I'm supposed to be the expert here, but I messed up, so let me try this on my own before I come and teach it to you. But I think one of the things that's essential to my teaching philosophy is that the teacher is not the only expert in the room. What's important is creating a culture where both students and teachers can learn from the space that they're in and the relationships that they build. So I usually have wonderful relationships with my students where they're incredibly forgiving.
They are empathetic and forgiving of me when I mess up by saying things like, Mr. Shiboli, I'm pretty sure it's like this, and they'll show me how it works and we'll laugh about it. I'll congratulate them and say, okay, see, you don't need me anymore. They say, No, that's not true. It's one problem. But I do have challenges. With some of those things, I think as far as executive functioning goes. Those are skills and habits that I was directly taught when I was in high school, and my mom is an executive functioning genius. So all adolescents will just really reinforce those habits. So I think for me, I have, you know, books that I can pull an intervention from and say we're going to try this today.
And I don't have to be perfect because I have a curriculum behind me. And I also do feel like I can speak to the benefits of practicing those habits when they're not second nature. And providing the Neurological background to explain to our kids, like, Hey, this is something you cannot do yet, but that doesn't mean that you can't hack your brain to learn how to do it. Yeah. Yet it is important. Yeah. Using tools that work around where your deficit is, so that you can be equally capable as all of your peers, because that is a sentiment that a lot of my kids do have when they start to struggle, is I'm at a disadvantage. And it's very difficult to help them see that your quote disadvantage is only at this moment. The lack of flexibility. You have to try this other thing. And flexibility is a really hard thing to teach. Because you have to make kids uncomfortable and stretch their tolerance for uncertainty. That's the thing that I struggle the most with. I'm like one of the most rigid people I know. But, but yeah.
Jen: Yeah, I can, I can relate to some of that. I, you know, for me, if I were a teacher, I don't think I could do the math part. I think I could do something like history or science, maybe writing if it was creative writing, and I could probably, you know, do some of the executive functioning and functional things like that, because I've had to teach myself how to do it, even though I've had support along the way. There are times when, you know, you're by yourself, like in college and you have to keep after yourself. Yeah, absolutely. I do think, too, like, I studied education in college, so there was a lot of explicit instruction and how to do it. Yeah. Granted, I did elementary education, and now I'm working in a high school setting.
Ellen: So, so there's definitely, but before I taught, I was a home-based tutor. So again, teaching myself how to do all those skills and researching and finding the resources is helpful. And I think to your point about there being things that you don't feel like you could do, I'm really, very fortunate that I have a team of, that's the bell, I have a team of three other teachers in my space, at all times. So we have a wonderful paraprofessional who does math and science. Like she is a biologist and her husband's a doctor, and that's their background. So we'll pull them in and say, This is the intervention we're working on. Can you help with the homework assignments based on the strategies we're using? We have two other teachers who are sociology people who love doing English and history. And so for me, I know that I can pull. A friend tag, a teammate, and say, when you are free, can you support this student in a space that I cannot?
Jen: Yeah, that must be helpful to have those people play off of and be able to support you. What do you like best or least about teaching?
Ellen: Ooh. So, I would say it comes as no surprise because I am so inundated with teaching culture that one of the things I like least about teaching and one of the things I like best about teaching are the same, and that's working with families. I think working with families can be one of the most rewarding parts of my experience.
So I'm not just building a relationship. With my students, but also being able to guide parents who have maybe never parented a child with a disability before, or don't know what resources are available to them, or what strategies work well in a classroom. They can be used at home because teachers, or I should say parents, are a kid's first teacher.
And. I think the greatest disservice to some of my kids is that their parents just don't know what they don't know. And so I love when parents kind of bring me in and consult me like, what can I do, should I do, this is what we're doing, how can I improve? I think that's great. And I have a lot of parents who are like that.
And I have great working relationships with parents and kids. We communicate frequently. And then I have parents who aren't interested in helping. And I think the misconception that a lot of people have in America is that teachers are the ones who shape the way kids think. But if a kid comes into my classroom with a preconceived notion about who they are or what they know or what they're capable of doing, only the parent is in a position to change that.
Maybe not only the parent, but also the parent plays a significant role in that. And I think we glorify the hero teacher in society of the teacher that changed the kid's mind, the teacher that changed the kid's life. And I know that, you know, every day that I work with my kids, I'm, I'm doing something for the better, but there are some kids that are just not going to work with me.
And those. The kids that I grieve the most for, and what my supervisor will tell me really often is you can't save everybody, which I think plays into that hero teacher mentality of it's our job to help the kids that need it the most, but kids need to learn how to help themselves. And I think parents need to take responsibility for helping their kids.
But that's my little soapbox. I'll get off of it. Jen: No, I can understand where you're coming from because, for me, you know, even though I've grown up with supportive parents, I have what, before I was working for them, I was working for them. With children on the spectrum, and also ones with ADHD, and I, you know, I can imagine being in their place if they didn't have parents who were supportive of me.
Ellen: Well, I'm sure it made your job more difficult, too.
Jen: Right.
Ellen: Like, you'd be doing the same thing over and over and over again.
Jen: Right.
Ellen: And I think the challenge is that in a school, an individualized education plan allows a student to be a student until they're 22, but schools get demerits if they hold kids back and they don't graduate on time, which cuts into funding. So then there's a whole political side of education where we don't have the luxury to do the thing over and over and over again until a kid gets it. Even if that's. Maybe in their best interest. So the repetition has to be happening either with an independent organization or at home. And so parents have to decide where they want to put their resources. Either they're going to devote their own time, or they're going to devote a substantial amount of money. Like there's an industry surrounding ABA therapy. Like I'm just. Being candid here, ABA therapy has helped a lot of children, but there is an industry profiting off of parents who don't know what to do. And so instead of empowering parents to learn these tools and do it in responsible ways, I think a lot of families don't feel like that's an opportunity for them.
Jen: Yeah, I agree with that. So, going into the topic about the pandemic, how was it when you were teaching during the early part?
Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's talk about the early part of the pandemic. So I was doing my student teaching. Right when the pandemic hits. So March of 20, I had been a student teaching, um, in an elementary school. And said goodbye to my kids for spring break, and I didn't get to see them again. And. That was tough. That one, like personally for me, my experience got cut short, but also for them, right? They were kindergarten, first graders. And I am certain a lot of them were unable to learn very much from home. One thing that I thought was wonderful was that our school district drove around with mobile roaming, um, Wi Fi stations. So we had buses that would bring routers so that kids could participate from home.
Kids could log on. Everybody has a laptop. I was impressed with the effort that the city of Indianapolis made to make learning accessible for our kids. It was really good. Even so, I think consistently, when I was brought on to coordinate virtual education for that school, I only saw maybe 10 kids a day, and my initial class was 26. So there were 16 kids who were not logging on or participating, or enjoying the enrichment that we were providing. Attempting to provide. And so we also had asynchronous options. So if you weren't able to get onto your Zoom, you could print out the material and submit it, or complete the material online and submit it to Google. The classroom does a really good job of that.
But again, only like six or seven of my kids did that. So then there were like 10 more that just didn't do anything, and no one was. able to support them. And I don't know what was happening in those homes. I didn't know what was happening in those homes. So when I graduated from college and it was time to apply for jobs, I went into social work so that I could focus on home-based services and tutoring because I thought, who knows if we're even going to go back to school. I don't want to be in a school and not have kids around me, especially because I know that kids need someone to model for them how education works. And so while you can learn vicariously through a screen, it's just not as good. I took a course several years before the pandemic on technology and education and the double-edged sword that it provided.
And so, I just knew that I needed to be in person with kids. And so, I worked with a range of kids from 6 years old to 19 years old. on whatever it was that they needed, and I would come into their homes, to supplement their Zooms essentially, whenever they had to be online with a teacher or they had an assignment that they were doing remotely. I said, Okay, we're going to do it together. I'm going to guide you through these. I'm going to use games as interventions. I'm going to model for you the practice. We're going to go through all of the release of responsibility and transference, which are just teacher terms for basically saying, I do, we do, you do.
And every single one of my kids went from failing, like virtually zeros, to passing. Now, passing looks different. everyone, right? So for my elementary school kids, it was just that they were turning in their homework. They were learning and enjoying learning, and they couldn't wait for Miss Ellen to come and join them. For some of my high schoolers. It looked like six hours a day sitting next to them working on assignments from the previous quarter that they had never turned in to get up to a D, because there was a lack of motivation, was lack of attention, and a lack of support in the home, right? If you are a single mom with four kids who each have two hours of homework a night. And you roughly have four hours before bed, it's just not going to happen. Every kid is going to get the short end of the stick. So I treasured the time I was able to put into supporting each of those kids. But I also saw just how disparate educational experiences have been virtually were.
Jen: Mm hmm.
Ellen: And it came down to whose parents were available. So I think that gets back to, you know, my joys and concerns about teaching, right?
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen: There's a lot that families need. Jen: Yeah. I, I, I definitely would be, you know, for me, even though I didn't teach when I was no longer doing ABA therapy, And I was during the early part of the pandemic, I often thought about some of my clients, you know, just curious how they were doing and, you know, I can imagine that some of them had some of the same challenges as your students did too, because the help that they, the individualized help that they have was no longer there.
Ellen: Right. I, yeah, completely concur with you, but especially with kids that were in therapy, whether it was speech therapy, ABA therapy, or mental and emotional health therapy, like a lot of skills that they needed could only be transferred in person. I think I was reading an article about the efficacy of these treatments that were happening remotely. And talk therapy is the only one that was able to show similar results as opposed to negative correlations and results of students and patients regressing, which I thought was interesting.
Jen: It does make sense to me because I have done many years of talk therapy, and it is effective, but, um, you know, it makes sense that you could do that pretty much as effectively over, you know, Zoom because it's, you know, you're just talking. It's not like you have to do something hands-on. So yeah, that's more adaptable. So you gave me a good idea of what it was like during the early part. How is that different from, you know, now when you're more into.
Ellen: Yeah. So late stages of the pandemic, just to kind of give you, um, kind of a timeline. So, March 20 shut down. Kids were isolated within four weeks, I think it was like two to three, but I'm just going to give four rough estimates. So let's say by April, all of our kids had devices and we had our roaming routers, which were great. So virtual instruction had commenced, and we did that for about six weeks. Then we had summer and fall. Teachers were optimistic that we might start having hybrid instruction. So hybrid instruction was the idea that Half of your students would come in one day and then they would be virtual the next, and half of the other half of the students would come in, or students would elect to come in or stay home.
And I think hybrid education allowed for our students to get some of that hands-on exposure that they needed, which was wonderful. And so because of the way that COVID was spreading, and this was still pre-vaccine, the schools announced right before. We were supposed to start by delaying the start of school so that everybody could quarantine at home for two weeks and then come in from September to our well from September. And then there was a massive outbreak. Our numbers were back to about 5 percent of the population being infected. And so in October, we shut everything down again. It's virtual again, um, from our fall break, which is mid-October through about January. And that was a time that we saw a lot of families in crisis because they were looking forward to putting their kids back in school, and no longer had childcare. So, as someone who is doing educational neglect cases in our child protective services system, I had a lot of referrals. I had a lot of families I was working with, um, and a lot of people who needed a tutor, not just for education reasons, but also for childcare reasons.
Jen: Mm-Hmm.
Ellen: In January, what was wonderful was that we were able to get hybrids up and running, and we were beginning to have vaccines. And so teachers, like doctors, were. Considered first responders and able to get their vaccines so that they could be in their classrooms and be protected. We put in a lot of social distancing measures. So at my school, what that looked like was instead of one passing period, we had two. So your name was A through K. You would go in the first wave, which was two minutes, and you'd be in your seat. And then K through Z took the next wave. We still had half of the class show up one day, and half the class show up the next.
