Interview with Me and Ruben (part 1)

  Hi, I am Jennifer Purcell and welcome to my podcast, Living with an Invisible Learning Challenge, where we will discuss, discover, and learn more about the challenges and times of those with NLD and other learning challenges. I do have a website for this podcast  and it is called living with nld. com.  I also have a Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter account for the podcast.

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It's called  the NVLD project,  and I use their blog for my research.  They are a nonprofit that is based in New York and is trying to get NVLD back on the DSM, and they provide many resources for people with NVLD on their website.  I'll provide you with the website for them in the podcast description. All proceeds from the ads on this podcast will be donated towards the NVLD project. 

Please feel free to explore the other topics on the podcast and hopefully you will learn something new from them. I hope you enjoy today's episodes. 

Jennifer: Yes, you can go ahead and introduce yourself.  

Ruben: Okay, so my name is Ruben Benzel and I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm originally from Columbus, Ohio, and I'm proud to be an alumni of Columbus City Schools. So I had the privilege of being able to, you know, go to a high performing elementary school in the city school district,  kind of a more mainstream middle school and magnet school.

And I kind of got interested in education. Out of, , my internship program, in high school where I shadowed my favorite eighth grade math teacher.  I enjoyed working with students, on my favorite subject, you know, helping them out with math, whether it was. you know, a middle schooler at that time at a first grade math level, or even an eighth grader that was already taking geometry and everything in between. 

 So I went and I got a liberal arts education at Oberlin. I always knew I wanted to be like a high school math teacher. So I have, um, you know, an econ major. math minor.  And I think it's great that I got sort of that statistical background, uh, to kind of get, you know, um, some training and being able to interpret data and education. 

And, then I moved to Indianapolis in 2012, to join the Indianapolis Teaching Fellows program. And I spent my first two years teaching at a turnaround school that has been taken over by the state. And, in 2014, I started at my current school, here in high school where your friend Ellen, is a resource teacher . Each year I teach geometry, both kinds of the regular and honors in the same class, and I teach a calculus AP course.

And, just this past year,  Indiana got rid of your state test so it was my job to start. Or help start an SAT prep course that prepares students who are maybe not quite in that college ready category, prepare for SAT level math and then, you know, outside of school, I like a good coffee shop.  I got a five year old who's about ready to start kindergarten.

So fortunately, she's,  You know, doing things out and about during this podcast right now. So,  that's kind of my introduction. 

Jennifer: Thank you, Ruben. Do you mind me asking, are you a neurotypical teacher? Because I know  there are neurotypical and neurodiverse teachers.  

Ruben:  I teach, , one of the things that, you know, I kind of emphasize in my position is that we have to teach all students, and that I have neurotypical students and students that are not neurotypical. 

I have twice exceptional students as well.  And I cater, so twice exceptional may be a situation. For instance, you know, there may be a student that has a specific learning disability, but it's also high ability as well.  That's actually, I'd say one of the most exciting, students because, often we find that the education student system, you know, doesn't get them, they have unique thinking styles.

And if you teach them in the right way, I mean, they can really take off and run and surprise you.  Yeah, they can. 

Jennifer: So it sounds like you, you teach both, neurotypical and neurodiverse, students.  And you said that you help them with math, which is definitely one of the challenges that neurodiverse people sometimes have. 

Ruben:  Yes.  Math, I think, requires a lot of executive functioning. Yeah and when I was trained In my master's program, when I was taking the special education methods course, there was a statistic that was being spouted out that one of the most common places where there's ADHD diagnoses is in the Algebra I course. 

Jennifer: Yeah, I, for myself,   when I was in school, I always had a challenge with math. I had to have tutors whenever I did a math course. In your classes, do you know what specific learning disabilities your students have? 

Ruben: Yes, so on our attendance system, we have apples and, if a student has been designated as having a learning disability, 504,,,  even, you know, being identified as high ability, we have that information as well as an overview of your accommodations. 

And it's required that we read them and understand them and try to implement them in our classroom.  

Jennifer: That's good. I remember,   when you were, when I was emailing you about the interview, it sounded like you created a lot of tutorial videos for your students.  

Ruben: Yes so  right before the pandemic there was a colleague of mine who also taught geometry, that started flipping her classroom  and she started making YouTube videos. I had right before of a pandemic,  a class that was like probably one of my toughest classes that I had taught, in my time at here and in that,  you know, 13 out of the 19 students had an IEP,  you know, there was a mixture of students that were ADHD hyperactive. And ADHD,  you know, sort of like, the type that kind of just has trouble, like focusing, you know, the more passive type  and those don't mix well because, you know, they kind of feed off of each other in a negative way. 

 So when the pandemic hit,   we had to shift to providing instruction online. Yeah.  We. Posted the videos,  you know, of the flip classroom. And what I noticed is that there were actually several of those students that actually improved  in the pandemic.  They could have a video where they could start and stop at any time.

If you were writing too fast, you know, that was not a problem.  Start and stop it at any time.  And I took it a step further and I started thinking about it. You know, what are the students doing who are successful? , from the pandemic  and one of the successful things that good math students do is they take notes and  they have examples to work off of.

And the analogy that I like to use, it's, it's kind of like, you know, what jazz musician  in jazz, you have to have a melody first before you can improvise  and in math. You know, regardless of whether you are a super genius,  or, you know, on the struggle bus with math, you need to have examples to work off of.

So I started requiring my students to submit notes. Hmm. And that was actually part of the independent practice grade during the pandemic.  So, I mean, my videos, uh, and other colleagues videos were not perfect, uh, so I frequently, with each semester, made surveys, where I asked students, to kind of rate the helpfulness of, like, the online math platform we were using, uh, the quality of the videos, whether they preferred the videos that we produced or the videos that other people produced, and I found it That students preferred when you made the videos yourself so they could still have your style  and it had to be, you know, aligned to the practice that they were doing. 

So I made it a goal when I taught the summer school class for students that didn't pass geometry to make videos that were 15 minutes or less. 

Jennifer: Hmm. That's really cool that you did that.  Because I know for me when I had hands on,  teaching, whether that was with a video or in person, it was a lot easier for me with, with my difficult subjects like math and,   writing,  and I can imagine that was really helpful with your students, like you were describing,  when they can pause and,  stop at any time and being able to, You know, it was a good idea to do the survey and have the notes because then they can be more,   proactive with their education. 

And I saw some really eye opening statistics with that survey as well. So I asked periodically the question, did you prefer school,  before the pandemic the way it was? Like, go back entirely to how things were exactly before the pandemic, how things were in kind of a completely virtual format or a hybrid of things.

And I actually noticed that. Only about a third wanted to go back to the way things were before the pandemic. Oh, wow. , and 20%, I would say , actually wanted an entirely virtual instruction. And I would say, you know, there were probably a good 20 to 25 percent of students that actually saw improvement in their academic performance with virtual instruction. 

I think that we really need to inform our policy makers, because a lot of policy makers think, oh, our kids need to be in school. School was working before the pandemic. 

Ruben: No, it wasn't. Um, I mean, the percentage of students, you know,  getting below a 15 on Mathis, uh, a CT, um, has gone up from 14% in 2010.

Mm-hmm . To, you know, 20% in 2019.  Wow. So describe for me a little bit about how your classroom was before the pandemic and then how it changed to during and after.    Before the pandemic.  My classroom, you know, we had a lot of guided notes, , we had whiteboard problems,  interspersed,   and we had skill based, paper assessments. 

So the students could, , you know, our test questions were aligned to skills, and they got a grade for each skill so they could kind of track and see what their progress was on each skill in the course.  And, uh, we still use skill based grading in our math department, which is really good to, you know, kind of monitor the progress.

, and we had paper worksheets where IP was just kind of like graded on, uh, completion mainly.  

Jennifer: Is skill based grading like, , a letter grade or is it different?  

Ruben: It eventually translates to a letter grade after you get all the skills in the grade book.  I like to tell students that. You know, if they got like about a three out of four average on a scale, I mean three is kind of like, you know, you're mostly mastering the scale, you know, there's some small mistakes in there. 

So if you did all your work, and you got a three average that's about a B minus in the class.  . Okay.  Yeah. I hadn't heard it was skill-based. That's why I was asking.  And you know, instead of having like a, a bad grade on a test , you know, you could see, okay, I did good on pyre phem. Maybe the distance formula was a weaker skill.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm . 

Ruben: And,  students are allowed to remediate a certain number of skills. 

Jennifer: Okay, that makes sense. So they know where they're doing well and where they're, where they can do a little bit better. 

Ruben: Yes. 

Jennifer: Okay. 

Ruben: then we shifted to Delta Math, which is an online math platform where you can make custom assignments and you can even like, put in your own YouTube videos as well.

Jennifer; Mm-hmm  . 

Ruben:  So I made the assignments where I linked my YouTube videos. And, the way that I have it set, excuse me, is the students have to get a certain number of problems right in each skill. So the kid who gets a.  Two problems right the first time is going to get the same grade as somebody who got, you know, five problems wrong and then two problems, right? 

And we want our students to be able to, you know, get the practice and repetition they need. So on the easier stuff, they're not going to get as much practice because they don't need as much. But on the harder stuff, they got to have,  you know, more practice on that.  So, that's something that I've kept in my classroom,  using Delta Math. 

And, you know, occasionally we get some pushback on that. there's students that, I've got a tough student in my summer school class, that said, Oh, I want paper worksheets because,  Delta Math, you know, when I get them wrong, I give up and I get discouraged.   When, you know, in paper worksheets, you can kind of get away with,  you know, just writing scribbles and getting the completion points, uh, but in Delta, you know, they have links to their own instructional videos.

They have links to my video as well. they can see a worked out example of the problem. And I found that even a lot of the neuro divergent IEP students, actually came up with some really neat things.  Independent learning strategies with Delta.

Jennifer: Like what?  

Ruben: So I can think of a senior that I had in my summer geometry class. Last summer,  she struggled mightily. I mean, she failed geometry multiple times, you know, before the pandemic and she was a success story. I mean, she got,  actually not only passed, but got a B and she had a Google doc where she would actually take pictures of questions that she got wrong.  And,  she would keep a notebook of her mistakes and she would make less and less mistakes  was very creative.

Or I had a student last year who was on the spectrum,  you know, very, you know, below grade level.  On the NWEA and,  you know, he has like, you know, number sense issues, like if you gave him a number sense problem, even something like 42 minus two, I mean, he'd have trouble doing that,  but,  what I noticed is that when he used Delta math, he had a notebook out and he would try to imitate the steps  of the problems  and maybe,  you know, he wouldn't be able to do the mental math, but he could start like mimicking the steps. 

Jennifer: Yeah, that's good because usually I would imagine that the steps would lead to, you know, being able to do the mental math a little bit 

Ruben: .  I mean, he has some retention and processing speed issues and, you know, I did give him the accommodation of letting him use his notes, because he really did need that, like graphical, um, you know, illustration in front of him. 

Jennifer: Yeah, I usually do too. I couldn't do mental math until I  was used to writing it down on paper, and then I could visualize it better in my head.    So  how is it different now when you teach your students, uh, now that you're, you know,  kind of in a, the end of the pandemic, or it's different?  

Ruben: So I think it really depends on the type of class, I would say  the average level of independence and dependence in learning in the class.  I would actually say, Delta math has blessed me with a lot of data  on my students. So I've been able to see. How many problems have they attempted? How long have they spent on a problem?  Did they get the problem right or wrong?  What is their accuracy rate? And, I mean, when we look at a test like the NWEA,  which actually assigns a score based off of the task that a student has like a 70 percent chance of getting correct, so that's like the right cognitive development level.

I found that the students who have a. A program on Delta math where they're getting 70 percent of the questions right is about the right level of rigor for that student. So I can use that data to inform me, especially students who are getting less than a coin flips chance of getting a problem. Correct.

You know, that's a signal for me that they maybe need some more  intensive intervention and students who are getting maybe above 80 percent correct.  They could use a little challenge. So like if we're doing like a trig unit, for instance,  at the click of a button, I can create a custom assignment for or an extra credit assignment, where I can even access like pre calculus skills  and do next level trigonometry, and they can choose to do that assignment if they finish early.

I think we can use some of these technology programs rather than having one worksheet. We can assign students problems at your development level and encourage students to practice at their development level. 

Jennifer: Yeah, that makes sense.  You mentioned a couple times the NWA test. I'm not sure what that is for. 

Ruben: So it's our computer adaptive assessment that many schools use,  at the beginning and the end of the year. And it gives us a good idea about what math level the student is at. So, it also predicts performance on state tests and SAT and stuff like that too.  

Jennifer: Okay. That, that definitely sounds like that would be helpful for teachers and for the students so they know where they're at.  Do you have any, you were talking about this already, but you sound like you have some students where they were able to excel a lot better with some of the virtual teachings rather than that rather than the in person one. 

Ruben: Yeah.  I mean, it's not everybody,  but there are definitely some students that saw, you know, improvement.  And,  I could kind of,  maybe see why,   I did a virtual algebra two class , the first session of summer school,  this year. And when I do a virtual summer class,  in that last hour, I have a private conference with each student on zoom in my break room.

And I'm able to show them their Delta math data, tell them why their grade is the way that it is. And what is the quickest way that they can master the skills?  So, I mean, I can't like to do that as well in a classroom, because it's kind of humiliating to talk about somebody's grade in front of other people.  But I mean, like on zoom, you can do things.  Like you can share your screen and like work out problems,  and have a teacher one on one without having to worry about, you know,  what's going on with other students.  

Jennifer: Yeah, that makes sense.   So would you say during the pandemic it was harder for your  neurotypical or neurodivergent students to succeed? 

Ruben: I think it really depended on a lot of different factors.  You know, what was their parental support like at home?  So I found, you know, neurodivergence that had strong parental support.  Actually, you know, we're more likely I'd say to make progress. So I think parental support may have been a better predictor, I would say,  or even like, you know, free and reduced lunch status.  I would say,  some people,  you know, certain people on the spectrum, you know they may not enjoy the technology component as much. 

Jennifer: Uh huh.  And then, how would that compare to your neurotypical students during the pandemic?  

Ruben: I can point to, you know, several neurotypical students, though,  that did not make as much progress.  I think  You know, a lot of the factors were, you know, did the students have, you know, good quality, independent learning behaviors before the pandemic,  what was the parental support like at home?  And I would actually argue that when I was telling you about that student that made like that Google doc,   You know, she had a pretty substantial IEP, you know, she had a specific learning disability and she made a lot of progress in a virtual setting. And then there were, I mean, 20 neurotypical students, you know, like that student that I told you about, who pushed back on Delta math and was trying to get out of doing work.  You know, he was,  you know,  more neurotypical,  you know, maybe he had, you know, something, but not like  to trigger an IEP.

Jennifer: Yeah.  

Ruben: So I think. the neurotypical versus not neurotypical divide.   You know, it doesn't tell the whole story.  Yeah, that makes sense. And it makes sense to me, like you were saying the factors of their,  their own individual behaviors and their support from the parents.  

Jennifer: Were there, do you think there are students that,  you know, needed the hands on support, whether that was virtual or in person? Were they able to get that during the epidemic or was that challenging?

Ruben: I mean, I think it's challenging for any school,  , you know, all these zooms and all that type of, I mean, I think our school though, we did better than most schools,  in providing support.  You know, we made our students sign on to zoom. 

We gave them, you know, structured classes.  We, you know, went hybrid. Wednesdays were like student support days in the middle of the pandemic.  So they had multiple office hours that they could drop into as well. And our particularly good job,  of being able to meet with and, you know, establish individual meetings with students. 

Jennifer: Yeah, that's really cool. I remember Ellen saying that you had like little mobile buses. I could give them Wi Fi.  Connection during the pandemic. 

Ruben: Yeah.  I mean, I think And I think the resource team is a great resource for us general teachers as well, especially I mean somebody like Ellen,  you know, and they're very, they're very proactive. 

And I think they're also very good at our school,  and encouraging our students to become advocates for ourselves, too.  

Jennifer: Yeah, I, I thought that was really cool. I hadn't heard of a school doing something like that before.   So,   how is your classroom like now with, you know, is it a hybrid of virtual and in person? 

Ruben: So let's see, mainly in person, I would say now five days.  There was a demand for a virtual section in the first term of summer school. I just finished teaching, you know, a class that had students from my school and a sister school, a geometry class the past three weeks, and that was in person, and then we'll be in person next year.

Jennifer: Mm hmm.  Um,  Does it feel,  I don't know, weird or awkward is the right word, but does it feel weird to be in person more than virtual like you were?  

Ruben:  Oh, I'd say, uh,  it feels more routine now,  but I will talk about the transition.  We kind of transitioned back to completely in person. And, a more normal school at the beginning of the school year last year.

And I bought into Delta math. You know, I love that platform and I still do.  And you know, having these tech features and I get to, you know, day one of school and the internet is not working in the school because everybody is trying to use it.  That was day one.  So then I had to, like, make paper alternative copies so everybody could be, like, on the right foot to be engaged. 

And fortunately, I mean, the internet took actually several months for the internet to get better. So, you know, I had to have plan B, uh, you know, for the first two months.  So it was almost like I had to have plan A and plan B,,  and to make things interesting, like on day two, we had a temperature issue in my room where it was like 82 degrees and we had to move classrooms.

And I literally had to set up a classroom and have plan A and plan B, in a matter of an hour and my prep period. Wow. That was, so it's like the master chef of classrooms.    So I mean, it was almost comical. , if I were a first year teacher, I mean, I wouldn't have been able to handle it, but  you kind of,  You know, made me draw on my repertoire,  like the nine years before that and all the different types of experiences that I had.

Jennifer: Yeah. 

Ruben: Being able to get back into the groove.  

Jennifer: What would you say you like, what is the, what you like the best and least about teaching?  Ruben: All right. So,  what I like about teaching the most, I think there's a lot of room for creativity. 

Jennifer: Mm-hmm . 

Ruben: You know, take an abstract math concept, you know, something like proofs.

Jennifer: Hmm.  

Ruben: It's almost an art form, I think , to be able to create a lesson that can try to engage kids.  ranging from, you know, kids that could get fives on the AP calculus exam tomorrow, all the way down to a student who can't do like 42 minus two in their head. And our school, you know, mixes both students together.

 So we have like,  blended honors and non honors, and I think it's so good, you know, that each of those students can interact with each other.   So I think that's something that's  really good.   Where I think, you know, teaching needs to improve.  I would say, obviously, 

Jennifer: Hopefully what you can do with these episodes on  this podcast, Living with Invisible Learning Challenge, I would like to challenge you to journal about the  episodes and just see what you learn from them. Or you can share about the episodes with your friends and family and see what they can learn from them.

And, um,  As always, I will post the links to the articles that I use in the description, the podcasts, and  please let me know if you know somebody who you think would want to be interviewed on this podcast, or if you yourself would want to be interviewed, please email me. Um,  I have my email on my website and I also have it, um, pretty much. 

Pretty accessible on Facebook and Instagram through messaging as well. So you can get in contact with me in those ways.