Interview with Dateability, Johnathon and Me (Part 2)
Jacquline and Alexa: Yeah, that seems great too, to have a story like that, that you know of already.
Jen: I was curious if you know, like, where your users are coming from, like, different parts of the country?
Jacqueline and Alex: Yeah, all really all over North America. We definitely see more clusters on the coast, but we do see people in middle America and all throughout where we really want to build that user base. You know, it's a really good way to get that race up as well, especially because a lot of those states in middle America have such high disability rates. But I'm guessing this is typical for the other dating apps just like the big Metro cities, LA, New York, Miami. Well, they always think about what we sell a self-driving car in Arizona and like, yeah, they always launch into those cities first. Like Uber, I remember when Uber finally came to D. C. when I was in law school there and. It had been in New York and we were just waiting. We knew it was coming, but yeah, we do want to build it up and we want to start going international. That's on our plans for the end of the year. Because there's really nothing like this in the entire world. It's really wild to me, but we will get messages every week from people in Spain, France, Australia, and the UK. And so we're going to start out. You know, with English speaking countries and getting our hands, you know, trying to get our feet wet there and then expand. And then once we can, hopefully we're launching a subscription model later this summer. So we'll always have, always a free version, but we'll have some revenue from that. We can start hiring customer service reps for other languages and really start to globalize.
Johnathon: That's awesome.
Jacqueline and Alexa: And where, where are you two living?
Jen: I live in San Diego. Okay.
Johnathon: Same, same. So definitely on that, that coast and what you described, and hey, you go for the big cities first, that is the model, that is the model we did at Uber, as you, as you noted, uh, and because it's all about liquidity, right?
Like, do you have enough people on the app so that when people open it, they're like, Oh, I can find interesting people or do I open it up and there's just like One person or there's nobody or, you know, Hey, there's several people, but they're all interested. And I don't know, LARPing. I don't, I'm not into LARPing.
So, you know, who knows? Yeah. What is LARPing? Oh, I'm, I'm not a LARPer, but now I'm going to sound like I'm, you know, the voice for all LARPers, uh, live action role play. So you ever see those, uh, movies where they have the people who get in the, yeah, and they got the medieval armor in them, but they got the big foam swords and they just have a big battle.
I don't know if I've ever seen it, but I really like revolutionary Civil War reenactments. Is it like that? You've, I think you've seen Horrible Bosses, the movie, and they're like LARPers. I actually have not. Oh, okay. So that's okay. So I'm okay. I'm not even. Google, Google how to LARP, sure to pop up probably a lot easier than building an app.
Never done it, but I always find it to be a fascinating thing to watch. I know which rabbit hole I'm going down later.
Jacquline and Alexa :Yeah, you're, yeah, you're, you're totally right. And when we launched, we were really, you know, we knew that there was, there were going to be people who would sign on and not see a single person.
And so we wanted to combat that by. Having an optional location function so that people could see elsewhere. So, you know, you're in San Diego, but you could match with someone in Pennsylvania and that has really been successful. And that's how the first couple that I mentioned before started dating.
They live in. 900 miles away. Now they're moving to a brand new state together, to start their life. So that's, that's great but then, yeah, we have, we have another couple who happened to meet, are in the same city and they're both on the autism spectrum and. You know, they're, they're going to be celebrating their one year anniversary this year. So, we really have tried to think of every little thing that the community would want. And that virtual connection is also important for the disability community because I mean, not only with the pandemic, like throwing a wrench in everything and people being more open to virtual companionship, but just like accessibility and safety. I think that starting out virtually is not a bad idea.
Jen: Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, my whole podcast is virtual. So I know how that feels.
Johnathon: One quick thing you mentioned is the location, or change your location to match with other people as you're looking at revenue models. And you may already know this. Probably done all your research. That is a very sought after feature. And most of the dating apps make that a premium feature. And it drives a lot of revenue around it. The only time, and I believe it hasn't been for the main apps was during COVID when Tinder made the Tinder passport, it's Tinder passport, right? They made that a free feature so that people would just. Talk to people anywhere in the world because we're all bored. And it was a huge success but it drives so much revenue being able to have that. So, it's up to you how you want to do those tiers but just a little tidbit if you don't know.
Jacquline and Alexa I think it would definitely, like, as we grow, yeah, that's something we would add.
Yeah. And take it away. I did know Tinder did that during, during COVID and that's like. But you did know or didn't? Didn't. Oh. And it's, That's really nice. Like I like darn missed opportunities. No, it's like I don't know. It's like that time period that we're all like we were all locked up and kind of nice to each other. Yeah yeah
Jen: I was gonna start Asking you guys, basically what you think the pros and cons are of dating apps versus, in person dating where you would meet somebody in person rather than online. And like comparing that for your customer base, Jacqueline and Alexa and your customer, clients, Jonathan.
Jacquline and Alexa I mean, I'm somebody who has never met anyone online. I've always met my former partners in person, but that hasn't, I haven't been on a date in like years and the pandemic threw a wrench in that and now I'm busy.
2020 was the first time you ever signed up for dating it. And. So, but I do think like I'm really busy and I don't know, like, I don't have a whole lot of time to go out. And when I go out, I'm usually seeing my good friends and like, I'm focused on them, not going, I'm not trying to look around or trying to find somebody like I don't, I forget, you know, I don't get to see my friends very often.
And so we're spending quality time together. And so I think an app would allow me to meet people, and it'd be better for my schedule. And I think it would open me up to more like people who are, you know, You know, I'm 34 now. So a lot of people don't like going out to bars as much anymore that are my age.
And if they are, we might not be as compatible. And so somebody who's just like, is having a chill night, they're not, how am I supposed to meet them if we're all at home or like at a movie or, you know, with, like with friends. And so I think as you get older, it makes it easier to, and then I do think what Jacqueline said about our users is that it, the world is so physically inaccessible.
It must be, I don't, can't imagine what it's like if I was a wheelchair user. And somebody's like, do you want to go get coffee at this coffee place? And then to worry or wonder, or have to check to make sure that it's accessible, that I can even get in the front door. And so I think that meeting somebody online first and establishing that relationship and kind of making sure, like, is this person worth venturing out into the world for?
I think that's really like, that matters since we're something. Yeah. And we're, we're trying to also bridge that. That those two experiences into one and by creating more events and, you know, we're doing an accessible bar crawl in Denver tomorrow and we're doing, we're trying to do community days, you know, in select cities. And so we really want to. Make Datability a community and not just like this online place where like everyone can be, you know, sort of anonymous. We want people to come together and really fight the isolation that we've all experienced.
Johnathon: Yeah. I think that isolation and fighting it and giving you access to people that you may not run into real time is the real pro of dating apps, right? Like you don't need to be at the bar 24 seven waiting for somebody to walk through the door. You can put up a profile. Come in when you are on your lunch break and start to make some sort of connection.
And it does give you, I think, greater access to people that if you're having a chill night at home or you're not wanting to go out, you have that ability. But I think the cons of doing that exclusively are you don't necessarily get the real time involvement. I think you can Help to bridge some of that with video calls, and I think it's now becoming more of a standard protocol, both for safety and I think just to connect with people to maybe do a short facetime at first, you know, people can spend 1015 minutes googling the best response to questions and then type it in the chat versus having a back and forth.
And I think that's where you really get to see how your chemistry is. How can you interact? But I think there's no substitute for time and whether that's time that is spent communicating virtually or time that's spent communicating in real life. I think that that needs to be a principle of any sort of dating process. So I love the way you guys are thinking about events and community organizations. I mean, people just love coming to those to socialize. So I think that's real. A good way to utilize the strengths of online dating while also bridging some of those just natural shortcomings Yeah, and I think people forget that dating takes effort.
Jacquline and Alexa : And it's which is why i'm so single Yeah, and it can like it can beat Feel like a chore sometimes like you do have to To sit there and swipe or go through your life and then get to know somebody someone like you have to do that You know Whether that's in person or on a dating app, it, yeah, it's, it does require effort. Like people want, and people want to see that effort too. You know, we'll see people who may contact us and they'll say, Hey, I'm not getting any likes. And, I, you know, I try to send them a kind email saying like, here's our blog posts on how to make a dateable profile because, you know, saying, putting in your bio, hi, isn't going to. It gets you a lot of interest. People want like to get to know you and so I think that's an important thing to remember
Jen: Yeah, I know what you mean with the high piece. I Look down at profiles, whether it's on Coffee Mints Bagel or other apps where it's like you can tell that they didn't put much effort into filling the questions out and it's like, Hello, I want to get to know you a little bit before I know if I want to chat with you.
Jacqueline and Alexa Yeah, exactly. Like you, you don't want to just. Choose someone based on their photos. Like I know that that's kind of what dating apps have come down to, but, it's just like, yeah, you, you want to see that someone actually cares and is interested in meeting someone. Yeah, exactly.
Jen: I was also curious since we're all siblings here, how we try to support each other with what we know about their, Neurodivergent or chronically ill piece.
Jacquline and Alexa I think for me, you know, Jacqueline and I have lived together for, oh, seven years? Seven years, I think, now, and so, yeah, obviously we lived together when we were kids, but then, but she wasn't sick then. I left for college and she got sick when I was in the middle of college, and then I went to law school, and I was 3, 000 miles away, so I was kind of detached from everything. But now that we live together, you know, I can pick up on cues. We have a dog, she's really Jacqueline's dog, but I pick up. Not the slack, that's like a wrong terminology, because that's not right, but you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. When you're taking a nap, I take the dog out, I don't say anything.
If I can tell you're not feeling well, I'll offer to take the dog for a walk. And, um, I think just like asking questions and communicating. And asking questions in a nice way, like if we go for a walk, I'm like, let me know, you let me know when you want to turn back. I'm good when I'm good with whatever and like no pressure. So I think just like being open and communicating with each other and being kind.
Johnathon: Yeah, for sure. I also think that, for me, it took a lot of education. Uh, like, when, when Jennifer went through her tests and came and said, Hey, you know, I have, I have this thing on, on verbal learning disability. Uh, I had no idea what it meant. No one was talking about it. So it took a lot to figure it out. To educate myself and understand, well, what does that mean? And what does it mean when my loved one is going through this? What is it like being in your, your head, being in your body with that? You know, and Jennifer, I'll send you memes or videos of people online that are talking about their neurodivergent experiences.
I'm like, Oh, is this kind of what you experienced this, your, is this your reality, and it's, you know, creates a good conversation between us. And I think it is just. Builds more empathy, because for me not having that, not having that going on, it's very easy to not understand, but I think that educating oneself, learning and doing the best you can to empathize, is, is the first step to that being able to show up in a supportive way and then, you know, provide alternative exercises or opportunities or, you know, one thing Jennifer loves, you're very good at planning and I'm much more, oh, we'll figure it out as we go along.
And, but, but there is comfort in having the plan. So I'll do a better job. Okay. Let me plan things a little bit farther in advance. More specific timelines for things, just cause I know that's going to be something I can easily do. And it's going to give a better experience and a more relaxed experience when we're hanging out for Jennifer.
Alexa and Jacquline: Jennifer, how old were you when you were diagnosed? Okay.
Jen: That's a good question. So I was 19. So I was in college as well. And, Jonathan's five years older than me. So to give you an idea, and, for me, like Jonathan was saying, Educating himself. My parents did that as well. And, trying to see what, you know, know more and learn more about what NLD is because, like, Jacqueline, you it's invisible, right? So it's not very obvious that I have that. And I think for many people who meet me, and didn't know about me having an LD, they're like, huh? Like you, you like to talk. You know, the nonverbal piece. I'm like, yeah, I like to talk, but there are a lot of parts of language that I don't understand. I mean, most of the language is nonverbal.
Jen: What I also wanted to ask about was, in your guys's experience, , or experiences, I should say, Like, have you seen, like, what some of the typical red flags are for neurotypical versus neurodivergent, and, like, how that shows up in the dating app world?
Jacqueline and Alexa: Yeah, you know, well, we, Red, do you, I guess, do you mean, like, in safety and that sort of thing? Aspects. Yeah. Yeah. We really try to educate our users on what red flags look out for. And I think that a lot of people can assume that everyone knows these red flags, but you know, But for whatever reason, whether someone is neurodivergent or they just haven't used a dating app before, people might not know these red flags.
And, we would just rather educate than assume that everyone knows them. And so we really try to make sure that people know not to share any personal information or financial information. And if someone insists on going out of the app to talk, it might be a red flag. Um, and so, We try to put, you know, put those tips on when you sign up for the app and then they live on the app and it can, you know, that, that's our top priority is safety.
We don't want to hear that anything bad happened to anyone. , but unfortunately, as Jonathan knows, the internet is a scary place and there are bad actors everywhere, but we have tried to implement different things too. To reduce those like every profile now, it was started . Yeah, march has to be manually approved by me. And that has cut down on spam accounts drastically, they're very easy to spot and so I just don't have them on the app, and I think that that has really helped people because I, there are people who are more vulnerable or people who think that disabled people are more, more vulnerable. And we have a zero tolerance for that. We don't want anyone to be taken advantage of undateability or from someone who they meet dateability.
Johnathon: I think. All the red flags you mentioned are excellent ones and the ones like how you start to stay safe online. I think one of my favorites that came out of my work at Match Group is, I think it's kind of specific to dating context, is how do people react when they hear no?
How do people react when they don't get their way or when you establish a boundary? , because it's easy, easy to, like somebody when you're agreeing with them, and everything's so pathetic, and you're always on the same page, and you're always getting your way, and that's a very natural thing. Things and some, some instances, but it's also very natural that at some point in your dating experience, someone's going to ask you to do something, going to suggest something. And for whatever reason, whatever it is, you go, you know, I'm not interested in that or no, not right now. And a healthy response to that is respect. Okay, great. Let's do something else. But if there's that insistence, if there's that, if there, if there's anger, if there's anything other than acceptance of, of that boundary, That is a huge red flag, you know, and this is something that I think has been shown and proved out in a lot of my work my, my personal life as an older brother, I tell my sister this all the time, but I think it's, I, I think it's one of those things that, how do people respond when they don't get their way? My mom.
Jacqueline and Alexa: . Yeah, I like that because remember the guy that asked me to go on a hike with him? For a first date. I had literally talked to him for like 10 minutes before, like we met in person. And then he was like, do you want to come up to this town outside of Boulder and hike? And I had never been to this town. And, and I was like, no, because that'll be the last time my sister ever sees me. And he was like, what, you think I'm a bad person? And I was like, I honestly have no idea. Like, I don't know you. And I was like, and I'm not going to, I like, I'm not going to go on an isolated hike with somebody I don't know. And he kept pushing and being like, I can't believe you think I was a bad person. And I was like, like, literally I'm a woman. Like I'm. I don't know what else to say. And he kept pushing and we never, I never saw him. I was like, I'm not like, okay, fair enough. Let's go get a, let's go get a drink or slice of pizza instead.
Like that was the response I was looking for and pushed back and like made me feel bad. Like I was accusing him of doing something when I was just like, that's not something I'm comfortable with. Yeah. Articulating how people react. When somebody says no, I used to not react well when people would say no, but I think I'm a little better now. Yeah. Yeah. And that's my red flag back today. I see, I do, do see that with some users, when people will see something on their profile that they disagree with, they will. Block them and we have a space to write wire, but lucky and someone will say this is hate speech and it'll be because they have something political, but that's not it's not wasn't not hateful and their bio. And it's like, some people have, like, 0 tolerance to even see that on an app, but you. Like, there's people on the app that I definitely don't agree with politically, but am I gonna delete them from the app? No. They're allowed, you know, free will, and They can think what they want. , but so it is really interesting and I think that yeah, that is a great point.
Johnathon: And preference is different than exclusion like you can express a preference and be like not for me That doesn't mean not for everybody everybody and I and alexa the person you were talking to 9 99 sure not a steelyard carol was probably fine But if that's the way he responds when you say no, i'm not interested in going on a hike well, then Other things that you say no to he's probably gonna react in some sort of way. Well, why can't I have it my way? It's a good listeners test just like this : how does this person argue? How does this person fight like are they accepting and they'll just go with it? Yeah, that's always my favorite tip If you're already fighting about that.
Jacquline and Alexa: Well, we weren't fighting, but you're trying to make me feel bad, and I'm like, you're p Like, you're doing this, I am like, stone cold in here. You're not gonna make me feel bad. I'm not going on that hike with you. It's literally in the middle of nowhere. Like, there's, like, nowhere near society. I was like, no. Absolutely not.
Jen: Yeah, that makes And it makes sense to me to like, I wouldn't have done that either. And it's like, like Jonathan was saying, no, and consent is a very good, you know, way to see if somebody, how they're good with their boundaries. Being sad and, I think also, how they're good with, you know, like you said, Alexa, suggesting other things. And, you know, I remember, when I was talking with John and my parents about being on dating apps, they always made sure meet in a public place for your first couple of dates, because then if something does happen, you're around people and it's easy to, Leave, you know, you don't have to necessarily make an excuse, and to, , you know, I'm glad that you Jacqueline that you manually check all the profiles too, because, Being neurodiverse, I have had, instances where I've been taken advantage of, unfortunately. And, it is easier to, you know, we tend to be more trusting, more easily and more naive or innocent. And so it's hard for us to sometimes see when, oh, this is a bad person, or this is a con artist, or this is a red flag can be hard to notice sometimes.
Jacqueline and Alexa: Yeah, I'm sorry that happens and it's really unfortunate and there are people out there who specifically will go in with that intention. And we, yeah, we, we just want to reduce that as much as we can. Um, because I mean, we're, we're not, I'm not perfect in approving people and sometimes I'll think that someone is not real and they'll email me back and say, why would, why would you delete my account? And I'm like, okay, but better safe than sorry. But it's, yeah, it, we just want people to have this, a good experience dating and, you know, it's always important to remember those things and those safety tips, but we don't want people to have to worry about things like, will someone accept me because of my disability? Those things we want to be taken care of.
Jen: Absolutely. That makes sense to me. Something I was also curious about was, This might be, I want to make sure I word this question right. But for me, when I've been dating, I know sometimes this is a tricky area for me to kind of tell when the person might want to be in a serious relationship with me or not, or if they want to continue dating or not. And so I was curious if for either of you three, how that feels for neurotypical versus a neurodiverse, like maybe there's. Some nonverbal cues That come up that you don't you know how to read, you know.
Jacqueline and Alexa: I I will say yeah, I will say I think it's hard for everyone. I feel like I'm someone who doesn't like to ask if like, are we exclusive? Or like, is this going somewhere? Like, I, I would like to just know that instinctually. And that's not always the case. Sometimes I cannot get a read on people. And do you assume? Yeah. You know, who for so long met his mom, whatever. And then I, like, I confirmed that he was my boyfriend only to find out like he was not my boyfriend. And I was like, what have we been doing for the past three, four months? Like, okay. So yeah, you can never, yeah, you, you and you gotta ask . Yeah. I think that, like, I, I think I've learned that if I, if I want something, I'm not gonna wait around until like I find out if it's. If I have it or not, that was something that I would do, in my early twenties, but now, like, I'm like, I just want to be honest and communication is key.
And so, like, I, I'm definitely for all for verbal communication on that. Like, I, I don't want someone to think that, oh, You didn't like you didn't you didn't catch that i'm like no you didn't tell me , so that's That's what I prefer Yeah And I think being up front from the beginning like if you're dating intentionally like you really want to get married or you really want To have kids and you're like listen i'm not saying we're gonna get married But that is what i'm looking for So if at any point you feel like that's not where we're headed like let me know I think that that's kind of good to be straight up in the beginning also And so in between that time before you like have the conversation more serious conversation at least like it doesn't you're not wondering as much because you did you were up front about it in the beginning but it's so hard dating is so hard and people are so complicated and complex and there's a lot of nuance so i wish i had better advice and and i'll say that we're both heterosexual so or we've only dated men and so that that is our experiences of like interacting with with straight men and you know, it can be challenging
Johnathon: I mean, it's the same on this end, too, though. Like, it's all about communication and, and I think making it explicit. In the beginning, if you're worried about, like, I don't want to come off too strong, I don't want to seem like a crazy person, you can always talk about hypotheticals. I mean, that's kind of what you're talking about, Alexa, is like, hey, this is what I'm looking for in general. Not saying you, but just saying, this is the path that I'm on and asking them, you know, what are you looking for? right now. , and, and do it in such a way where you don't have any expectations, at least in the beginning, so that people feel safe to be their authentic self. Because the last thing you want is for them to lie to you and go tell you what you think they want, have them tell you what they think you want to hear. But then I think it's also just checking in because dating is dynamic. You know, I met my partner on a dating app, and in the beginning, we were very clear that it was like, okay, you know, we're, we're, we're just seeing each other. Casually. We don't live in the same place. And so that's all it's going to be.
We've now been with each other for 3 years. We live together. It's, it's, it's wonderful and beautiful, but it took both of us coming to the point and communicating multiple times and going. Okay, I, I, I've changed where I am. I want to do this. I want you to be my person. I don't want this to be anyone else. So it changes. It is nuanced and it's dynamic. And so that's where the communication, and I think normalizing that communication too. You're not the weird person for bringing it up. It's not odd to be talking about these things. That, that's how, that's how adults behave. They talk, they communicate. Yeah,
Jacquline and Alexa: I think sometimes like being cool like everyone wants to be cool at least like when I was in my 20s I wanted to be cool, the cool girl kind of but Like I didn't mean uncool is cool. Like having those conversations like that makes you cool. Like you've got like you're Good for you. Like I have a lot of respect for people who have those hard conversations and and related to that as someone who like I absolutely hate confrontation and like personally if like I If someone could just like read my mind and I that would be great because I have a tendency to want to just like ghost someone if I'm not interested which is really unfair because I think that no one should like just be upfront send the Two sentence text saying it was great meeting you, but I just don't see a spark or something.
It's like I would prefer to be doing that but for me it is so hard for me to say that to someone but so I just try to remember like sending when I have to send those messages. That is the respect that I would want. I don't want to I don't want to be left wondering so I don't want anyone to have to wonder.
