Interview with Reuben and Me (Part 2)
Reuben Really needs to improve. I think there's something wrong when you could be an instructional designer.
Jennifer: mm-hmm.
Reuben: And make $20 or $30,000 a year more when in reality we have a task that's harder. And the average instructional designer, like teaching proof to somebody who can't do 42 minus two in their head, is a challenging task and you have to deliver the lesson. You have a little bit of social work dabbed in there as well, and the implications are vast. So if you don't get that algebra or geometry right, and you aren't teaching the standards appropriately, you're gonna get. And I mean, we'll go back to like the 20% that are getting an ACT score and math under 15. You know, these are kids that are going to have trouble with math to the point where they're gonna have trouble operating a cash register. Yeah. So the social consequences are huge. You know, if you're doing it right, because you're creating, you know, future productivity.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: So if I'm like, you know. Doing instructional design for something like, you know, uh, you know, of a medical field or something, you know, that's not gonna have as big of a social impact because a lot of those people already have, you know, master's degrees and already know how to learn and you have to teach, you know, these teenagers how to learn.
Jennifer: Yeah, that makes a little bit of a different topic, but, do you. You probably do experience this in your classrooms. Where, like with bullying, there's bullying, you know, kind of common in your classroom or not.
Reuben: I mean, there's always teenage drama. You know, that's just the nature of teenagers. I think here, I think hearing is kind of a place where, I mean, we have students from so many walks of lives. They have to coexist with each other and they have to learn how to coexist if they want to have, you know, a full spectrum of clubs and activities. I will say, you know, there was a day where there was some particular gossip in one of my junior classes last year.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: I immediately, you know, shut that down and I said, you know, we're not gonna have, you know, comments about other students here. And, I don't have respect for that.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I appreciate that because I know some, I know from some of my own experience with bullying that it can, it can be a challenging thing for young people to experience or go through.
Reuben: And I mean, I was bullied in sixth grade. Middle school was really tough for me. I mean, I was even physically assaulted in my sixth grade science class. So that was a tough time. So I feel like I have a lot of empathy, from the underdog.
Jennifer: I'm sorry about that. So it, yeah, it, it sounds like you, you were able to like what you were saying, you're able to handle those when, when drama comes up pretty, pretty well because of having experience with that.
Reuben: I mean, I've seen drama.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Reuben: I mean, when I started at the turnaround school in 2012, I had at the end of the day, you know, a really tough Algebra one class. And, there were two students that got into a huge argument. You know, they were like, two of the most disruptive students in the school and, you know, they got into an argument where they were almost shouting at each other. One student even started to throw stuff out the window and the state superintendent of public instruction, uh, came into my classroom because he was like touring around the school to see, you know, how the school turnaround was going. And, I thought that night that I was gonna be called down to the principal's office and I would no longer have a job the next day.
Jennifer: Hmm. What happened, if you don't mind me asking?
Reuben: Not, nothing happened. I mean that first semester though, I mean it was like sink or swim. Nobody prepared me. I mean, I came into teaching thinking, oh, oh, there's these McDougall littell geometry textbooks. You know, I had a good, you know, textbook review. I mean that's actually the geometry textbook that I used when I learned geometry. But it wasn't so simple that you could go in and like just. Do problems from the textbook. I mean, you had to find a way to break it down.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: You know, customize to the needs of students in front of you and also deal with the exceptionals and the twice exceptionals and any combination of that. And I was not prepared for that because I only had three weeks of pre-service training and then I was in ground zero of school turnaround. So, you know, that was like a big, big drama.
Jennifer: Yeah. When you think about your neurotypical students and your neurodivergent ones, what do you wish that your neurotypicals would know more about the neurodivergent students?
Reuben: I think we gotta have respect for people's thinking styles.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: And the idiosyncrasies that they bring to the table, and I. I was like talking a few years ago, you know, in the political climate that we have here in this country right now. I think you can judge a place by how they treat people with idiosyncrasies. You know, when I was in the sixth grade being bullied.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: Idiosyncrasies were frowned upon. But when I spent my four years at Oberlin, idiosyncrasies were cool.
Jennifer: Hmm.
Reuben: And it was actually a really cool thing to, even be neurodivergent. And they bought, they brought their own quirks, they added and they enriched the community, and there was a lot of creation and new ideas. So I'd like for my neurotypical people to have more of that Oberlin spirit rather than, you know, the sixth grade, middle school bullying spirit.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Reuben: And, you know, we have to teach that by giving our, all of our students good experiences, our, one of our, pillars at our school is engaging them, in the timeless content and ideas and engaging them in the urban community. So, we introduce our students to things that are going on, even in the urban neighborhood, near downtown Indianapolis, around them.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm. That, that makes sense and then reverse it to, what would you want your neurodivergent to know about your neurotypicals?
Reuben: I mean, it depends on, uh, what the neuro divergences are. I mean, I think no neurodivergent student is the same. And I've seen exactly, you know, the full spectrum. I mean, I have some neurodivergent students that fit. And, beautifully even rise up and be like leaders. And then I have some that, you know, have, you know, a, a ways to go,..
Jennifer: mm-hmm.
Reuben: With those skills or academic skills. But what I, like for all of my students to see, including like many of the Neurodivergence, you know, thinking about students who are most successful, you know, what behaviors are they doing.
Jennifer: mm-hmm.
Reuben: That is getting them, you know what they need. So it could be, you know what, like what note taking looks like, for instance, like you could show students know what exemplar notes look like. You, like, when I do whiteboards, I like to show different thinking styles and problem solving methods. So if one student does a problem differently than another student, I'll show multiple ways and I'll even level with some of the neuro divergent students and say, okay, here's some different thinking styles we can use. Or if I like helping them during office hours, I'll say, you know, I'm gonna run through a few different ways and you tell me which way you like best.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm. That makes sense: what kind of environment do you usually try to create in your, uh, classroom for your students?
Reuben: So I would say I'm somebody that, you know, I'm a genuine old school nerd. And I wore my student's dad. I actually like, you know, searched my name on Facebook and, I saw like a few of my manual students they referred to me, this was before they were my Facebook friend. I mean, I became Facebook friends with them afterwards. Okay. As a genuine old school nerd. And, uh, you know, that's, that takes getting used to for some students. And some students really embrace it. But at the end of the day. I like to try to create an environment in the classroom, where there's, you know, mathematical thinking going on. You know, we're having, discussion about different math strategies. I have memes every day to kind of open the lesson. So, you know, I am a bit of a math nerd and that sometimes rubs off. I'm known for like the geometry teacher that does the triangle proof rap, for instance. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a far cry from a classroom manual that, that state superintendent, instruction saw.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: I would say that, and I think with each period as well and, and the different mixes of students, sometimes what may work for one section may not work for another section, and you have to be responsive to the vet.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: You know, some classes that you could, joke around a bit more and some, you know, maybe they don't have the maturity to handle that.
Jennifer: I was gonna ask you how you think your, the teacher you had your intern with would think about, like what he would think about what you're doing now, or she.
Reuben: Oh, yeah, I actually talk with her sometimes.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Reuben: I, actually in the first few years of my teaching, used to go out to lunch with her, when I'd be back in Columbus, Ohio visiting. But, you know, we keep in contact sometimes and I think she's excited about the work that I do.
Jennifer: That's good.
Reuben: I even tell my students sometimes, I like, oh yeah, Mrs. Sherman, you know, that was my favorite teacher, you know, she made me wanna become a teacher. And sometimes I tell her about you guys.
Jennifer: That's cool. I still keep in contact with one of my favorite teachers that I had in college. He helped me a lot with writing essays and I keep in contact with my math tutor as well and just, you know, seeing how they're doing and making sure that, you know, they. That they know that I appreciated them for when they were helping me out. I, you talked about this a little bit with your students, but it sounds like there were definitely ones that you, that with your, neurodivergent students sound like they were definitely ones that did better, than you thought they might maybe.
Reuben: I mean, I would say particularly like, I actually found that, like that toughest class right before the pandemic, they actually did among the best at submitting work, in that first semester. Or that first partial semester right after the pandemic. You know, they wanted to do well. And, uh, they were, you know, turning into work, and they were even, you know, taking notes off of video.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: :So I think there were fewer distractions, fewer social dramas.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: And when you look at, you know, an ADHD inattentive period with ADHD hyperactive, maybe separating those is a really good idea.
Jennifer: Yeah, that makes sense. I thought it was really cool when you mentioned that you had two students, one that, you know, took pictures of her, the problems that she got wrong and was trying to improve upon herself by making your mistakes. I thought that was really creative. Good for her to be able to do that. With your, you were talking a little bit about, with the hands-on with the parents in the beginning earlier. Are there, you know, when you think about the parents and the students, are there any that of the parents have kind of given constructive feedback to you on how to help their student more?
Reuben: Oh yeah. I mean, I get backseat drivers all the time. Okay. I think it's really good that they actually do that. And, I think I would advocate for any parent, you know, like listening to your podcast, any parent that, you know, if they're thinking about how do they help their kid, during the pandemic, it should not be, you know, storming into school board meetings, but rather reaching out to the teacher. And talking about, you know, how does their student learn, how does that student learn best? Yeah. That, I think that's, that's definitely a good suggestion and, is, you know, not only how they learn best, but you know, trying to maybe think, being able to teach them. Meet them where they're at.
Jennifer: Right.
Reuben: Yeah. I'll give an example.
Jennifer:Yeah.
Reuben:. I had a student, he was on the spectrum.
Jennifer Mm-hmm.
Reuben: you know, also had, I'd say processing speed issues too. But also potentially, you know, high ability or near high ability. So I get an email from his mom maybe about a month in the school year saying that he's bawling his eyes out, you know, taking notes.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: And I came up with a clever idea of screenshot notes.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: So where they literally take a screenshot of the completed example and just write a few bullet points to summarize. So if you have a kid with, you know, poor processing speed and it's tedious for them to write stuff down, why not take a screenshot so they can have it in an organized place?
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: And then be able to kind of think about the example a little bit by writing bullet points. And he actually added some color coding into his document. He made the formulas very clear. I think also resources collaborated with him and helped him too. And, he ended up doing quite well for himself in class.
And, when we looked at his growth on N-W-E-A, he grew, so target growth is like three points a year.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: And he grew, 15 points on.
Jennifer: Good for him. I was gonna ask, when you say high, high ability, are you referring to how they, how they can perform or?
Reuben: So like, high ability, is what we call gifted in Indiana.
Jennifer: Okay.
Reuben: So, I mean he was, I'd say, when you looked at his NWEA score at the end of the year
Jennifer: mm-hmm.
Reuben: Like if you looked at his score for his grade. Maybe, you know, 93rd, 94th percentile. So, you know, obviously there's, you know, set criteria to define somebody's high ability, but, you know, when you're kind of in that league, you are thinking at a pretty high level compared to your peers.
Jennifer: Yeah. Okay, and then also, are there, you know, any parents that you have that are pretty involved with their students in terms of trying to help them out?
Reuben: Yeah, I mean, I think, I like to say, almost every parent that I've met, wants their kid to do well.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: And that's my assumption whenever I'm sitting for a parent meeting is that, I mean, I haven't met a single parent that doesn't want their student to do well. I would say a lot of parents, you know, know how to help their kid pretty well.
Jennifer: Yeah
Reuben: Not every parent does, I mean, there's some parents that are extremely busy, and that's not, you know, their fault or anything. I mean, some people need to make money to make ends meet.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: and they may not have, you know, the time. Now if I were like a developer of Delta Math, I don't have coding skills or anything. But one idea that I would have is that you could take a program like Delta Math and it could detect disengagement behaviors through machine learning. And it could actually text the parent and say, your student is exhibiting, you know, disengagement from the class.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: Please click on this link to send the teacher an email and it would be like a form email that could be sent to the teacher, and then it could kind of begin like a communication between parent and teacher. That's just a wild idea that I have.
Jennifer: Yeah, that's kind of cool, being able to initiate that between the parent and the teacher. How many, uh, students did you have that graduated this past year?
Reuben: Well, let's see. In school, we have about 250.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: In graduating class, maybe 250. How many of those were your own students? So I mainly teach geometry.
Jennifer: mm-hmm.
Reuben: So Most of the kids are freshmen or sophomores when they're in that class and then I have a senior calculus class that's about 20 students.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: So most of those are seniors. That class has a demographic of kids that already passed pre-calc if they're a little bit ahead in math, but they don't wanna take the AP exam.
Jennifer: Hmm, that makes sense. That's pretty much it. Of all the questions I have, unless you have, anything else that you wanna comment on?
Reuben: I think, we, we kind of ran around, quite a bit.
Jennifer: Yeah, we did.
Reuben: What's, what, what's this podcast gonna be?
Jennifer: So basically I've interviewed you and I've interviewed Ellen, and I'm gonna be interviewing Eric, the music teacher. Basically trying to see how, it's, you know, kind of comparison of how it was during the, for this, for these episodes of how it was during the pandemic first teachers and comparative what it is now.
Reuben: I mean, I think that's, I mean, I think we, we really do have to go into the drawing board. I mean, a lot of other, you know, organizations, um, and fields, you know, are rethinking about how they do things.
Jennifer: Mm-hmm.
Reuben: You know, that the pandemic has occurred and I'd like to see, you know, more of that spirit in education.
Jennifer: Yeah. I would agree with you, that you definitely had to rethink how you did things. I mean, with being able to use programs like Delta Math and the YouTube tutorials that you did, you know, being able to, or, you know, being able to come up with plan A and plan B for your classrooms.
Reuben: Yeah.
Jennifer: Yeah. I think that was definitely a good example of, implementing, being creative and being able to come up with solutions quickly.
Reuben: Actually, one more thought that I will give.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Reuben: I may be of a minority…
Jennifer: mm-hmm.
Reuben: But I actually found it more pleasurable to teach, you know, these past few years than before because there's kind of an environment, you know, during the pandemic, you know, rather than having like. You know, preconceived expectations of what the job would be.
Jennifer Mm-hmm.
Reuben: You know, being a flexible thinker, you know, was kind of rewarding and, you know, people had an understanding that things wouldn't work a hundred percent of the time and that it was okay that things wouldn't work a hundred percent of the time.
Jennifer Mm-hmm.
Reuben: So, I think when you're kind of in an environment where, you know, there's. You know, not to say like the expectations should go down, but there's more patience with things not working out perfectly. It actually feels less stressful.
Jennifer: Yeah, that makes sense. Like you were saying, trying to be more flexible and I think also resilient to be able to, you know, to, and created, be able to think about, how to handle those situations.
Reuben: Yeah.
Jennifer: So thank you for letting me interview you. I had fun, asking questions and learning more about your teaching and your students.
Reuben: Well, thank you for, uh, having me on.
