Interview with Math Tutor

 Me: Hello, I'm Everchanging Butterfly and also Jennifer Perel, and today here with me is Geoff. Who tutored me when I was in high school with math, and I'm going to be interviewing him and asking him some questions about the time that we were, uh, in high school and when he was tutoring me.And so the first question is how do you know me? 

Geoff: Well, uh, once upon a time I used to tutor you in math. I believe I was there for the very tail end of geometry, and then into algebra two and pre-calc. And then, if I remember correctly, I was the one who figured out that you didn't actually have to take statistics, so you could get out of that. I remember math wasn't exactly your favorite subject, so, Yes, you are correct with that. And I answered the question. The second question was, was how long it was with all of high school and it, it, it was pretty much all of the math subjects and it was. 

Me: You're right. It was geometry, pre-calc, and algebra.And I didn't do statistics because I realized that I didn't need that fourth year of math. And looking back now, maybe I should have done that fourth year of math because I had to do statistics for sociology in college. But I did know I was gonna need to do that. So, you know. Be fair. You would've had to do it anyway because you weren't taking AP Stats, so, right. I wasn't doing AP stats and my other choice was AP calculus and I was like, that would be a big jump from pre-calculus. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, so I think I made the best choice that was for me. Then, and then the other question was, what was your strategy when helping me with the really difficult things in math?

Geoff: Okay, so this one gets a little bit complex because it's not actually, I mean, every subject is different, but, for math in particular., I have three not entirely distinct stages that I usually take someone through.  So there's instruction, which is exactly what it sounds like. There's flailing, which I will explain in a moment. And then there's practice, which is doing the homework and just. You know, cementing the technique. So like I said, instructions are the obvious one. I explain what you're looking at and, because until I explain that, it may as well be just meaningless squiggles.  But I believe that was mostly covered by your online lessons, which left me with the flailing stage.

Flailing is my rather overstated name for the process where you make a first attempt at using a technique or solving some problem or, or. Tackling some new concept, you're gonna have questions. You're not gonna know where to start.  And so my job's actually most important at this step because the trick is,  not to explicitly answer your questions, but to come up with questions that lead you to the answers. And of course mixed up in the step might be additional instruction. Because if it's clear that you don't know a concept at all to re-explain because asking you questions won't lead you to the answer if you don't have it. But in that re explanation, not using the same language as before, because if you didn't get it the first time, then saying the same thing again isn't gonna help you get it the second time.

And, that's where, jumping ahead a little bit. I think that's where some teachers and tutors and professors fail , students with learning disorders because they have this way that they explain it and they'll just keep trying. Not all of them, but plenty of them do. And the key is to find new ways to explain it. And then once you clearly have at least some understanding of the concept, Leading you two answers to your own questions, with questions of my own. And then of course there's the practice which is just trying it out, which like me, might lead to more flailing. So yeah, I think you did a good job explaining the different strategies that you used.

Me: And I remember you were very good at describing, different. Things I needed to do, especially I think it was the word problems where trying to figure out all the different things I needed to use and not, and things that I did not need to use in the word problems, because I know those were tricky for me.

Geof: Yeah, definitely Word problems. Word problems are the bane of every student's existence, but it certainly can't help to have  NLD  so, Yeah, it, you're right that, I mean, I didn't know I had it in high school, even though I thought there was something, because I was like comparing myself to my Jonathan, my older brother, and thinking, you know, there's things that come more naturally to him and I didn't know why and, now I do fair, or I have fair enough, college.

Me: So, I, that's one of the main reasons I did the testing.  I think we were kind of getting at this next question, but with the shortcuts that you might have remembered, teaching me? 

Geoff: Oh, yeah. I have no idea. The details escaped me, but mostly it was just the classic stuff that you'd learn in any math course at the same level. But,  the important part, it is not about the tricks or the shortcuts. It's about nurturing that learning process and having an understanding, an understanding for what kinds of mental connections each student will make. So mm-hmm. If you have the time to really get to know, The student and, and how they make connections like we did with three-ish, four-ish years of, of math tutoring.

Then you can start to get an understanding of like, okay, what kinds of explanations work? So the shortcuts were really more in my process than the ones that I taught you. Yeah, I agree with you. I think we did have a good amount of time because I. I think geometry might have actually been middle school, but, we were able to have enough time together to know each other and be able to, help each other, or you were helping me with realizing how I was thinking and, knowing how to help me when I was stuck on something.

Me: And I know, I don't know if those were shortcuts that you taught me, but I, I know for me, like with addition, I would try to group simple numbers together to add them. And that helped. Yeah. Now that, now, now that you remind me, I think this was,  around the point in my life where I discovered, uh, Arthur Benjamin's book. I'm trying to remember exactly what it's called, but it's something like the secret to mental math.

Geoff: And so I was trying to incorporate some of these, these mental math shortcuts into, what I taught you and, and how to do these, these more complex things.  Yeah that’s as far as shortcuts.

Me: Yeah. I mean, I, I remember I had, I used the calculator that my online school gave me, and that was really helpful too, because I, I could remember when to use the formulas, but not all the, not memorize all of the symbols.

Geoff: Mm-hmm. 

Me: That was also one of the issues and when I was taking statistics in college, one of the accommodations I got at Miramar College was writing down all the formulas on the index card, so I didn't have to memorize all the symbols. 

Geoff: Yeah. I'm probably going to irritate some statisticians here, but I actually don't consider statistics to be math. I consider it to be in a no man's land on its own somewhere between math and science. Yeah. It uses math, but it isn't math. I would agree with you. It is, it is. And it fueled on its own. Oh, not quite math, not quite science, but yeah. But it was, it was required for me to declare sociology, so I had to take it and pass it.

Me: Yep. Yeah, I ended up having to take that my first year of college as well, so. Oh, that makes sense. Do you think you used any shortcuts to help me that you might have learned in school yourself?  

Geoff: Beyond the actual subject material, you know, like stuff like, so , for trigonometry, which, you know, every single student will have ever learned. I don't think so. Not really, you know, beyond like the actual core material.  I had large enough classes in school that we didn't do a lot of one-on-one instruction. And the instructional techniques that I've developed over the years, actually a lot of it, uh, since tutoring you, I've refined, but most of that I learned from, from people like my parents or other key adults in my life. 

But like I said, the shortcuts that, you know, you might get taught for any one subject aren't necessarily the answer to how does someone learn? It's about effective communication. Right. 

Me: Yeah, that makes sense. And I would agree with you. Most of the shortcuts I know are from teachers or from my parents. I learned from math. So, you know, it's, it's from different people that you get them from. So that's, that makes sense. I was just curious if you had a memory that you might have, when I really got something that you were trying to help me with.  

Geoff: I have to confess, it's been a little too long for me to have any, yeah. There isn’t one individual memory that sticks out to me, but I am an addict and my drug is exactly that moment. Watching someone finally click with a topic that they were struggling with. I mean, it's half the reason that I want to be a professor at some point. But yes, we definitely had many moments like that. None of them stick out to me as individual moments, but we definitely had those. 

Me: Yeah, I know we did. And you know, I can't remember a specific moment either because it was a long time ago also, so That's okay. I,  but I'm sure there was, many moments where you. Helped me get something like click, light bulb.

Geoff: Yeah. And, do you think for me it was different helping me than something like, your mom or somebody else who doesn't have NLD. So this answer is probably going to surprise you, but , no, I wouldn't say that there is a qualitative difference here.  So I've actually had, over the last year or so, a lot of practice, helping to learn or helping, helping people to learn how to code. So essentially being a tutor in Python coding and. I'd say that it's functionally equivalent.  You know, it takes a little bit more time. The more someone struggles with learning. But, you know, there are people from all different, you know, levels of skill or, or, quickness of learning that have the same questions and a lot of people struggle with the same points.

So it's not about. Finding new techniques. It's that,  people with NLD you have to take a little bit more time and you may have to dive a little bit deeper, and you may have to come up with a couple of different explanations. But once you've done that once or twice, you know, once you've explained it in several ways before, you don't have to come up with that new explanation the next time. So it gets easier as you, as you teach more people.  I guess I'd sum up by saying it's, it's a difference in amount, not a difference in kind. I would agree with you because you're right, it does usually take longer for people with Nld to learn something like math because of that slower, mental calculating speed that they have.

Me: And, I know for me that was true and,  I think it got faster as I got more used to calculating different things in my brain and also doing them on paper and just checking them on the calculator and knowing that I did it correctly. So yeah, I think you're right with that answer. And, this is kind of similar to the question we just asked you, but do you think you would've done anything differently knowing that I have NLD now than?

Geoff: There are absolutely things that I would've done differently, if I was the person then that I am now, because I've gotten a lot more practice, helping people with everything from math to coding, to, you know, different kinds of science, to even, history. A few times, but, in terms of NLD versus no NLD? No, not really. I mean, like I said in the previous answer, it's more a difference in how much time and how much effort you have to put into the instruction and flailing steps. It's not really a difference in kind. Yeah, I would agree with you. I think you did the best you could with, knowing what you knew then.

Me: And same with me being a student. You know, I didn't know what I had, I just had a hunch that I was different from people in my family and, that, you know, we were, you were helping me out and I. I think I know you were one of the best math tutors I had, so. 

Geoff: Well, thank you. 

Me: You're welcome. And I mean, that was, that was the reason my parents got me tutors. I know they got to the point where they couldn't help me with any subject and because I was learning it differently than they learned it, or I was learning new things that they hadn't learned, and they were like, we can't help you anymore. Jennifer sorry, but we'll find people to help you. So I'm glad that they did, because you know, it led me to create friendships with people that were really, Great and find really good tutors. That helped me pass classes in high school and also I think really helped me pass the math classes I had in college.

And because I was able to keep all the things I learned, even though I didn't have you there physically in college, I was. I'm sure I remembered everything you taught me and I had math tutors up there that I used at Berkeley and they were, they were good too. So, you know, just different styles. So because I used the tutoring center up there and that was, that was helpful in its own right with Berkeley. I don't know if there were any other questions you came up with, no, there weren't.  

Geoff: There was one more I think.

Me: Oh, no, you're right. There was one more. It was, what would you want to say to someone  who is a teacher who has a person who has NLD or something similar to?

 Geoff: One word patience, there is nothing that will shut a student down more. I don't care if it's NLD  or just someone who's having a hard day. There is nothing that will shut a student down more than having a teacher who is impatient  and makes the student feel like they should feel bad for asking questions. It's hard. I mean, you'll feel your patience fraying internally, but you can't let that have an external manifestation. You can't show impatience. You can't show frustration. Be kind because you, you can't learn if you're terrified or if you feel. Like you shouldn't be there. Or, if you feel like, you know, the person doesn't want you to be there.

Me: Yeah, I would agree with you on that. It is good for you to be patient and kind because it's, like you were saying, if you are, the student is stuck on something and they're trying to ask questions and you're coming back at them with an inpatient attitude or, or tone in your voice, then it's like, you're not helping me. And so I can remember you, you were very patient and very kind and helpful with, with your , tutoring and. I think that was very helpful because it did take longer for me to get things and I'm sure there were many times where you had to keep circling back on something to make sure that I got it. 

Geoff: Oh, absolutely. And, and we did have some moments where, you know, you'd have a moment of clarity of that, that, oh, I got it moment. And then, you know, I'd come in the next day or two days later. Sorry, I can't remember how to do this. I can't remember how we fixed this . And I don't know what I'm doing anymore.  All right, well let's do this again. You know, that kind of thing. So, and the other, the other thing that I would say is important is when the student does finally grasp a concept, reaffirm for them that. Hey, look, you did it. You got it. You know, you're good at this. You can get this, you can do it because, most of my experience, over the last year or two has been helping people learn to code. But, one of the things that I have found is an absolute truth is people's ability to learn to code is directly correlated with how much they believe they will be able to learn to code.

Me: Yeah, I agree with you. You have to believe that you can do it, and if you don't, then it's gonna make that much harder. 

Geoff: And it's, it's the teacher's job to foster and grow that sense of, yes, I can do this. Yes. 

Me: So, yeah. Well, thank you for letting me ask questions about this. This is, Really helpful and I think that students who are still doing math or teachers who are mathematicians or helping students with math will find this, as a resource.